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Star Ship Troopers Discussion

"To Whomever Suffered the Lobotomy:
Stumbled across your site and read your review. Several factors are glaringly apparent:

1. The reviewer NEVER served in the military.
2. The reviewer has NO conception of genuine citizenship, and most likely could not recite the Bill of Rights without referring to an encyclopedia.
3. The reviewer has a marvelous sense of humor, or is brain-dead. One need only study the course of American society over the past several decades to see the cultural decay Heinlein alluded to.
4. The reviewer is a prime example of the very attitude Heinlein decried.

Other than the above discrepancies, the review was---entertaining." ­ drobbins 11/9/97

Glad you thought it was "entertaining"!
An interesting thing about the decay of American society you mention - the division of opinion for the reasons seem to fall about 50-50. Many people feel it's because of a softening, more permissive attitude. Others take the position that it's because of the opposite: an over-militarization, too much rigidity and strictness. Personally, I think a big factor stems from the various sides not appreciating each other. In Starship Troopers, while RAH puts the veteran citizens in the main decision-making roles, he stresses at the same time the value of the non-military people. He seems to scrupulously avoid a dualistic notion of one side being better and the other worse. A healthy society, like a healthy body, needs different parts - the muscles can't get along very well without the brain and vice versa. Tibet may be a good example of what can happen when a culture ignores military concerns ­ Hitler's Germany when the military has too much emphasis. ­ Steve 11/9/97

"Thank you for your rational reply. Chalk my (slightly) overbearing (LOL) response to the review up to overenthusiasm; I had just seen the movie. Still, Steve, according to RAH, there must have come a time when mutual 'appreciation' was no longer possible, or else the militaristic status quo in the book would not have existed. Your point about the two extremes is valid. But having been in the military, and lived through the decay alluded to, I would gladly (sigh) subscribe to a similar agenda for the sake of posterity. I think you would agree that no nation has a divine dispensation to 'last forever'. Rome rotted from within. Athens, too. And so many others. We well might do the same if we do not heed history's lessons. You know what happens to those who don't." ­ drobbins 11/10/97

No problem - I always enjoy a lively discussion. I'm not sure how much of a status quo it was - remember how negative Rico's parents were about him enlisting? My impression from the book was that the civilian population appreicated the military's better ability to make certain kinds of decisions and be in charge of certain aspects of the society. The military in turn seemed to be comfortable with civilians making other kinds of decisions and being in charge of different aspects. Social and cultural degradation occur on all levels of society ­ any effective antidote must permeate all the different areas. We can all do something to help! ­ Steve 11/12/97

"I found Troopers to be a disturbing fascist screed -- the current generation tends to forget how damn near to fascism our OWN government came during WWII. The ideas about justice and the responsibilities of citizenship which H. espouses are authoritarian and verge upon the maniacal. I was an infantryman and remember the harsh training as well as H. does, but whereas his experience seems to have impressed him as to the neccessity of brutality 'in defense of democracy', my experience showed me the horrors of violence, the idiocy of militarism and re-affirmed (or gave birth to) my humanitarian, socialist impulses. These young (I assume they're young) fellows who come forth with their harsh, authoritarian views on society frighten me; their response tells me that we have learned the wrong lessons from war. I saw Buchenwald, Treblinka and Brechtesgaarten soon after they were liberated, and so I can tell you first hand where such thinking leads. In a nation with more prisoners than any other on earth, both numerically and percentage-wise, it is not only crazy but dangerous to proclaim that our society needs to become more stringent. I have seen the movie and found that it was a clever but extremely subtle commentary on the fascist nature of our country during the 'good war'. It is filmed and paced like those terrible flicks they made back then, but the candy-coated plot and Arayan-handsome characters disguise what I felt as a disturbing, harrowing brutality underneath. The director sure had a sharp line on H. I know this is long but I hope you can put it up ..." - Sgt. Chas.P. Roth, Ret. 1/30/98

Thanks for the great commentary! I'll definitely upload this, it really adds to the discussion. - Steve 1/30/98

Long, thoughtful reaction to this discussion from a 21 year old History/Poli-Sci major.

"The review and follow-up comments from others were thought-provoking. I recall reading the book about 30 years ago, and was greatly entertained. I have re-read it several times in the intervening years and each time found it to be a good read. I recently saw the movie, and enjoyed it as well, although I felt it did not convey some of the themes re societal views as well as the book. This was not unexpected, though. A theme I found in the book had to do with the role that personal responsibility plays in one's life. Today I sense there are too many "outs " for people to use in deflecting responsibility for their actions. RAH seemed to me to emphasize that individuals should hold an awareness of the effect their actions can have on others and society in general, and accept responsibility for same. Many things make up a healthy society, and maintaining an awarenesßs of our responsibility to support the larger community, and not just ourselves as individuals, plays a role here." ­ Richard 11/22/97

I think you would like this review <http://www.rjgeib.com/thoughts/athens/robert-heinlein.html> Richard Geib wrote on Starship Troopers. It's thoughtful, balanced, and adds to the discussion on our site. ­ Steve 11/23/97

"Enjoyed your review and the replies. If any of you can find it, you will enjoy reading an essay Heinlein wrote for "Expanded Universe," a collection of his fiction and essays. My copy was published in 1980 by Ace Books. It is on p. 396 of the softcover edition, in the afterword to "Who Are the Heirs of Patrick Henry." In this section, RAH covers most of the points debated on these Web pages regarding ST. It's about 6 1/2 pages, so I can't type it here, although I could hit the high points if there's enough interest." ­ Rob 11/13/97

"I have to disagree with you on your review, for one, to say that in communties where there is less corporal punishment, there is less crime is pure boulderdash, Look around at todays society, children on killing rampages at school, schools (by the way) where coporal punishment is NOT allowed, hmm, funny when I was going to school, We had corporal punishment, BUT! there never was an incident of killing even heard of... Think about it folks, they took religion out of schools, and corporal punishment also, Look at the rewards we are reaping, Heinlein wasprophetic indeed" - Zam 5/31/98

"With the release of the movie, Starship Troopers, it seems that interest in this book will be reinvigorated. I remember as a child reading a review of Forever War that compares it with/to Starship Troopers. It is an interesting idea. The two books views of society and interplanetary warfare are much different, no surprising when you look at when they were written: ST in the middle of the Cold War and Forever War after Vietnam. Both are excellent works and thought provoking. I liked both books, but in many ways realize that Forever War is a much more realistic, and human, book." ­ Matt 11/7/97

That's a good point, Matt. I'm sure the Vietnam war changed many people's attitude toward the military and warfare - it sure had that effect on me! I think one of the great things about science fiction is how it can help prepare us for the future, help us change. Technology and the world situation change so quickly but our attitudes and concepts are much more stubborn. The reality of warfare given the modern condition of weapons is completely different from the time of Starship Troopers. The Forever War makes the adjustment. ­ Steve 11/7/97

"Between the ages of 13 and 20 I read alot of Robert A. And loved almost all of it. Starman Jones was the first "grown up" novel I read. At this time I found "Troopers" kind of slow as npt enough time was spent on killing bugs. At age 33 I have just reread the book and loved it. R.A.H.'s political views are fastination. This book is almost as thought provocing as Stranger In A Strange Land. Our current justice system is a total failure. More and more money is spent regulating and imrisioning the poulation and less is being spent prepairing people for society. This book is totaly relevent today. R.A.H. was a visionary and I dread his view of the near future may come true. A movie about a bug war should be fun to watch but it will miss theessence of the book." ­ Marc 10/29/97

I think it would be hard for anyone to not agree with you about our "justice system". And Starship Troopers does challenge our social assumptions and encourage an important discussion. I don't see any historical confirmation of his conclusions, though. Cultures like Tibet with a more non-violent approach had less not more crime than say Moslem countries that did (do) things like cutting people's hands off for stealing. It's like the idea that spanking mainly teaches children to hit when they get mad or frustrated. ­ Steve 10/29/97

"I am confused by your comment that there is "less crime in communities where permissive attitudes are more prevalent." Wherever would you get this idea? Come with me to an inner city high rise housing project where there is virtually no parental supervision of any kind, where "permissive" does not begin to describe the "attitude," and try to convince me that there is a lower crime rate." ­ Jack 10/27/97

I think you're right that permissive does not begin to describe the attitude you're talking about. To me, "permissive" and "neglect" are completely different. Permissive at least in many cases means trusting and increasingly giving children more freedom - it doesn't at all mean ignoring them. I recently read a survey that inner city parents were something like 4 times more likely to spank children than other groups. More middle and upper class communities spank much less and have much less crime. This is what I meant by "permissive". Heinlein in this book is saying that the more physical the punishment ("spare the rod, spoil the child"), the less crime society will have. - Steve 10/27/97

"I think you might have missed the point of the book if you think all the action took place in the last three chapters. The point of the book was NOT the Bug War but what someone had to go through to become a man, an M.I., and then an officer. RAH was in the military and that is what he wrote about." ­ Ben 10/27/97

Okay, I'll agree with you here. To be more clear, I would have to say the action that was interesting for me happened in the first and next to the last chapters. I didn't miss his point about "becoming a man" etc. but I did disagree with it and found the pontificating about it quite boring. But then I'm coming from a different era, anti-Viet Nam war experiences, and appreciation for Ghandian non-violence. ­ Steve 10/27/97

"I have to believe that if society punished children/adults that misbehaved with physical punishment it would be quick and effective, and provide some sort of feedback to correct negative behavior.

The comment that communities with permissive parents equate to lower crime is not relevant. What is relevant is how much attention a child gets. Suburbia is noted for smaller families and higher income families. It logically follows that these children get more attention.

Attention is the one single factor that determines how a child turns out. Now given that children are not properly brought up, I think it follows that they must learn the cause and effect of punishment with negative behavior. Heinlein's comment about raising a puppy is highly relevant and certainly applies to children." ­ bart senior 11/1/97

My girl friend recently got a new puppy and I discoverd that even dog training philosphy has changed - experts and books no longer recommend any kind of physical punishment. They also agree with you about giving lots of attention when the dog is young. What do they say about an old poorly trained, aggressive dog? Put it to sleep ­ "You can't teach an old dog new tricks." This would seem to agree more with RAH's sentiment in Starship Troopers. ­ Steve 11/4/97

"I just finished reading ST for the second time. The first time was more than 22 years ago. I found the book to be even more enthralling the second time around. RAH was indeed a visionary. His descriptions of the past (from the future perspective) are still on the mark. We're still heading that way. It is true that most of the physical action takes place at the beginning and end of the book, but this is why the book is so good. The in between 80 percent is pure substance (anyone over 30 will remember what this is). Its growth. Its pain. Its intense. Most importantly, its very interesting.

I believe people who equate society in this novel with fascism or nazism is really missing the point. In the novel, one must voluntarily commit to Federal service in order to vote. You do not need to serve in a violent capacity either. Do those who serve feel that this is the best way to govern? No. They do not. Are the civilians trapped within a socialistic society controlled by the military? No. Society in ST (both the voting AND non-voting citizens) is the wealthiest, safest, individualistic and most productive in history. RAH and ST does NOT say that the more physical violence society has the less crime it will have. Re-read the paragraphs regarding "over spanking a puppy" and the responsiblities of school AND parents toward juveniles.

Corporal punishment, when inflicted, is severe in the book. But it is also scarce. It is not often needed or used. We do not see punish as a necessary deterrent to crime today. We jail and parole and release and re-jail and parole and re-jail, wasting many many years of many many lives in prisons. That would be considered a torturous waste of life in this book. You need to really read the book to understand what is truly being said about punishment. It is a very interesting read. Keep in mind RAH is creating a society in ST that has survived a world wide catastrophic downfall, has fought in worldwide wars and now is also in a mutually provoked war with extraterrestrials. All this is going on and you can walk safely in the parks at night.

Unfortunately none of this will come out in the movie. It will have spectacular effects and I will probably love it just the same." ­ Jim D. 11/2/97

See notes above about dog training. In the science fiction world, Julian May in Intervention has a similar idea about drug laws (page 218). In the future, the government decriminalizes and taxes drug use but gives the death penalty for committing crimes under the influence of drugs. I agree with you and RAH about the ridiculousness of recidivism but I can't see just killing all the criminals. China does something like that now and they may have less crime. I'm sure glad I don't live there though! So what to do? I don't know. Maybe the best approach is to just concentrate on prevention by giving more attention and resources to education and parenting. ­ Steve

Please email comments to stroy@jade-mtn.com.

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